protherm

Protherm 80e problem - PlumbingPages.com e-mail Search: Protherm 80e problem PlumbingPages Forum Index -> Water Heating technical issues and questions View previous topic :: View next topic Author Message ChrisJoined: 19 Sep 2002Posts: 5 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 1:28 pm Post subject: Gentlemen, I have a three year old Protherm 80e combi boiler. It fires up ok. But as the temperature rises (on CH or DHW) the burner often (but not always)shuts off. The pump immediately starts running again. After a variable time, usually 15-30 secs, it will fire up again. The temperature at which it shuts off, and subsequently restarts, is not consistent. Some days it works fine (but not very often)! However, just before it shuts off the burner flame noticeably increases in length and slowly (and somewhat noisily flutters), the cones of the flames eventually destabilising and dissappearing (is this called 'flame lift off' ?). No diagnostic error messages ever appear on the display.Whilst I doubt whether this is something I can personally fix it would be better If I was armed with at least some info before calling someone in (or wasting money on needless spares).Regards Back to top chriswattsJoined: 09 Sep 2002Posts: 478Location: Lower Normandy Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2002 10:35 am Post subject: When you say 'warms up' how long does the boiler run before this problem starts. Also does the burner pressure increase when the flame starts to lift? Chris Watts AIP RPC.Watts Plumbing & HtgPinnerHA5 2BUchris@cwatts.co.ukchris@cwatts.com_________________Chris Watts AIP RPC.Watts Plumbing & Htg50450 Montaigu les BoisFrancemail@cwatts.co.uk Back to top ChrisJoined: 19 Sep 2002Posts: 5 Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 8:21 am Post subject: Hi Chris,The time taken, before the problem starts, is variable (seconds to minutes). The burner pressure, for DHW, remains at 14mb even during flame lift off! It should be adjustable up to the spec max of 15.7mb. But the trim pot, on the control pcb, is already at max. The nominal input pressure to the burner is 24mb.Regards Back to top ChrisJoined: 07 Oct 2001Posts: 3028 Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 9:44 am Post subject: "The nominal input pressure to the burner is 24mb."As you probably know that's a bit high, it should be 20, though it shouldn't matter that much. If you put any other gas appliances sharing part of the same pipe, such as a gas hob, that will drop the input pressure a bit. Just wort a try to see if there's any effect. I can't remember how thw pilot works on that boiler - is it possible that when the main burners come on the pilot/flame failure device is not getting full heat. Certainly quite common with thermocouples that the pilot gets starved. You won't be able to see a lot through the spy hole I daresay. Lighting the thing withthe cover off the combustion chamber is a bit dangerous - you can get a face full of flames - and doesn't give a true picture of working conditions, but people do it.Other things to look at might be the fan: is the speed constant, is it fairly clean. The flue connections to the fan/top of combustion chamber area: are all the bits/rings/etc in place not leaking air/flue gasses where they shouldn't.As you probably know those boilers are made by Saunier Duval, whose technical help line is a premium rate number!I'm a different Chris Back to top DanJoined: 23 Apr 2002Posts: 2845Location: North London ONLY Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:57 am Post subject: You Chris' need to differentiate yourselves... Sounds like a problem with either the gas valve, fan or flue.Check the flue is not blocked; as the Chris' mentioned check the fan is free, Other than that get someone to get that the Gas Valve is operating correctly.Regards... Dan RobinsonDirector - Jennings Heating & Plumbing.CORGI 138845Tel: 0208 961 5936email: plumbnet@hotmail.comP.S. thought of another - are the case seals in a good condition? Check that you are not drawing air in from around the combusiton chamber seals - this can (and has) played merry hell with pressure sensors in Pumas etc., This message was edited by Dan on 9-23-02 @ 12:59 PM_________________Regards Dan RobinsonJennings Heating & PlumbingCORGI - 138845Email: dan.robinson@blueyonder.co.ukPhone 0777 5731339 Back to top chriswattsJoined: 09 Sep 2002Posts: 478Location: Lower Normandy Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2002 9:09 pm Post subject: It sounds like the lifting off is due to a lack of oxygen. Is the internal part of the flue duct intact or does it leak into the air duct (outside section)? If not is the flue terminal in a situation where this could occur ( climbing plants -especially ivy or russian vine) growing into flue? When you say 'nominal' inlet pressure of 25mb do you mean when the appliane is turned off? - You should be measuring the 'working' inlet pressure (with the appliance working at full capacity). This should ideally be 20mb ( but no less than 1mb less than the working pressure at the meter test point) Chris Watts AIP RPC.Watts Plumbing & HtgPinnerHA5 2BUchris@cwatts.co.ukchris@cwatts.com_________________Chris Watts AIP RPC.Watts Plumbing & Htg50450 Montaigu les BoisFrancemail@cwatts.co.uk Back to top DanJoined: 23 Apr 2002Posts: 2845Location: North London ONLY Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:51 pm Post subject: I am a little concerned aobut these gas pressures bouncing around... Can you clarify what you actually have going into the boiler... do a gas rate as well... Regards... Dan RobinsonDirector - Jennings Heating & Plumbing.CORGI 138845Tel: 0208 961 5936email: plumbnet@hotmail.com_________________Regards Dan RobinsonJennings Heating & PlumbingCORGI - 138845Email: dan.robinson@blueyonder.co.ukPhone 0777 5731339 Back to top ChrisJoined: 19 Sep 2002Posts: 5 Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:14 pm Post subject: Hi Guys,The no load pressure to the boiler is 24mb.When the boiler is at full capacity the pressure is 20mb.This can drop to around 18mb if the oven or hob is also on.The pressure from the gas valve to the burner is 14mb (at full capacity).The ignition system is direct electronic, no pilot light.The flame sensor is an ionisation type.The gas valve assembly is a Honeywell CVI comprising VK4105G with S4565 electronics. The flue is ok.The fan is ok.The pressure sensor/switch appears to be ok. I.E. when I removed the air tube from the switch to the fan housing, the boiler shuts down.The servicing instructions specifically state that the burner should be prevented from lighting when the sealed chamber cover is removed. This was not so! The burner fires-up whether the cover is there or not!! I did notice some water stains in the inlet flue.It is possible that some rain, a couple of weeks ago, had blown into the flue.I did further checks and found some more water stains on the lower seam of the fan housing.The floor of the combustion chamber, in the vicinity of the ignition lead grommet, also had watermarks. Is it possible that water has run down the ignition leads to the gas valve electronics?? I checked inside the cover and found no evidence of obvious damage (electronics is my field so I do know what I am looking for). If water has penetrated the gas valve electronics I would not expect an intermittent fault (but you never can be certain)!!So what do you think guys:Swap out the gas valve electronics first or the valve itself?Or can you see it being something else?Regards,Chris the originalBack to top DanJoined: 23 Apr 2002Posts: 2845Location: North London ONLY Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:19 pm Post subject: Hhhmmmm.... Tricky this... How is your flue run - there should be a downward incline... this is so that rain water and condensation etc., can run out of the flue.. not into the boiler.Water could have damaged the fan - but as you mentioned with the gas valve - I would not expect it to cause an intermitant fault - just start blowing fuses.I must admit this is stumping me somewhat. It would be nice to see the appliance working (or not ). I may be way off here, but could there be water damamge to the burners?? (Guys??)Regards... Dan RobinsonDirector - Jennings Heating & Plumbing.CORGI 138845Tel: 0208 961 5936email: plumbnet@hotmail.com_________________Regards Dan RobinsonJennings Heating & PlumbingCORGI - 138845Email: dan.robinson@blueyonder.co.ukPhone 0777 5731339 Back to top chriswattsJoined: 09 Sep 2002Posts: 478Location: Lower Normandy Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 9:22 pm Post subject: You have not mentioned the casing seals as Dan mentioned in his p.s. Are they in place & in good condition? Chris Watts AIP RPC.Watts Plumbing & HtgPinnerHA5 2BUchris@cwatts.co.ukchris@cwatts.com_________________Chris Watts AIP RPC.Watts Plumbing & Htg50450 Montaigu les BoisFrancemail@cwatts.co.uk Back to top ChrisJoined: 07 Oct 2001Posts: 3028 Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 9:53 pm Post subject: About the lighting with the cover off - it's YOU who should be doing the preventing! They can flare a bit.As you will know it can be connectors which suffer from the wet and go intermittent. It would be worth using your experience with a can of freezit to look for trouble. Did you check the seals etc for water damage? Could try lighting with just the main cover off, and sqeezing seals together (more) when it starts messing about. If the gas pressure isn't altering it must be the air, or a sensor like the NTC. Crud between sensor and pipe (they rarely use heat sink compound)Not sure what you mean about gas valve electronics, can't remember that on a Protherm. Could try s cleaner like Servisol on the pots etc (or something more modern and less sticky!) There isn't any electronics in a a normal gas valve, but several springs and seals which could get affected by wet/dirt.All the pressures you mention, by the way, are fine.COuld try some WD40 on the fan bearings in case it's a bit uneven.Good luck - let's know when you find it!(Check the auto air vent - top right- for leaks, by the way) This message was edited by Chris on 9-27-02 @ 10:56 PM Back to top thescruffJoined: 24 Sep 2002Posts: 3337 Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 10:44 pm Post subject: could be gas pipe undersized, have you added to the supply recentlywhats the pipe size and how longthescruff Back to top ChrisJoined: 19 Sep 2002Posts: 5 Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 11:13 am Post subject: Chris' & Dan,Thank you for your knowledge and help. My system is now working virtually perfectly! Nice one guys!The culprit was the flue terminal!! It was not the correct unit for my 60/100mm flue. Exhaust gasses were leaking into the air intake leading to the flame lift-off. A correct flue terminal is now on order!!One problemette remains:When a hot tap is briefly turned off and then back on again. The boiler begins to start up, ie the pump and fan start running, but the burner may take 15-35 secs before it lights. Is this normal?Regards,The original (and very grateful) Chris.Back to top DanJoined: 23 Apr 2002Posts: 2845Location: North London ONLY Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:08 pm Post subject: Sounds pretty normal... there are anti-cyclying devices on most modern boilers. The delay is for the heat to dissipate sufficiently for the boiler to think it is worth starting up again. The sort of cock-eyed thinking Potterton are renowned for - and before anyone says anything I was on site until 9 tonight changing a sodding flow limiter on a two year old Puma...Glad to hear you are up and running.Regards... Dan RobinsonDirector - Jennings Heating & Plumbing.CORGI 138845Tel: 0208 961 5936email: plumbnet@hotmail.com_________________Regards Dan RobinsonJennings Heating & PlumbingCORGI - 138845Email: dan.robinson@blueyonder.co.ukPhone 0777 5731339 Back to top ChrisJoined: 19 Sep 2002Posts: 5 Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 8:53 am Post subject: Thanks for the info Dan.Regards,Chris. 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